LBC callers react as bodycam is released in Henry Nowak murder

An absolute day of shame, I have to say, for that particular peace force, now that the body cam footage has been released.

He grabbed my brother, he took my turban off, started grabbing my head.Are you injured?Yeah, yeah, I've got a swollen eye, a little bruise.

All right, just step back a little bit for me.Someone flag these down.What's happened to you, all right?

I've been stabbed.

You've been stabbed?Whereabouts?I don't think you have, mate.Hand?

I can't breathe.

Put the hand in the cuff, mate.

You actually hear the young man saying, I can't breathe, I can't breathe.Oh, that would be the same words as George Floyd in the US some years ago.And what happened then?Well, we had the future prime minister taking the knee.We had football players taking the knee.Do you think we'll see the same for this young white boy?

No, me neither.Wonder why.Wonder why the police decided to take the story of the, I think he's 25 -year -old Sikh male over the dying 18 -year -old white boy.Wonder why that was.When do you suppose the protest movement will start?When do you suppose Sakhir will take the knee proudly?

And all the football players?Any time soon?Don't hold your breath.He's saying he's been stabbed, so let's just check him.

Where do you think he's been stabbed?

In the face.In the face?Oh no, but we have to check, don't we?

No.

In the face?

Just get these back off, get their details on that, and I'll keep hold of them.

What's your name, mate?

By the moment you are under arrest, and that's for assault, so you do not have to say anything that may harm the defence.If you do not make your name questioned, it's up to which you later rely on the court.Anything you do say may be given in evidence, alright?It's going to be sick I think.

I know I speak for a lot of Brits today and this has really angered me, this case.I've always been on the fence about two -tier policing.I think we've got a very broken and inconsistent sentencing and judicial system which leads to the perception of-tier policing.But this case, I can guarantee you that the police officers have reacted with, as soon as the race card was pulled, it was like they've acted not objectively, and they've pretty much acted as judge, jury, and executioner.They've not assessed the situation.

I can guarantee you if the shoe was on the other foot, and it was a person, person of color on the floor, then it would have been a different story.

Well I think it's fair to say that they've certainly seemed to side with the Sikh man who is standing, claiming that he has an injury to his eye, although if you look at the video you can't see it, and rather ignored what turned out to be the dying requests of the white boy.

Yes, yes, and I will stress that 30, 40 years ago we had a different kind of two -tier policing.the handling of the Stephen Lawrence case, the events that led to the Brixton and the Toxteth riots.But now, I accept that, but now I think the shoe is on the other foot.The police in this case have not acted objectively and basically as soon as the race card was pulled, they've just, right, well we don't want to be perceived as racist, we're going to protect this ethnic minority.and, you know, and just to believe him wholeheartedly.

The fish rots from the head down is how Mr Farage concluded his, I think he spoke for about 10 or so minutes.What needs to be done then by the government and the senior police officers?

Well, this D .E .I.walk narrative which has been pushed on us for quite a long time now, it started off with good intentions but we all know where good intentions lead andyou know, this, as Nigel Farage said, there needs to be much more of an objective standard of policing where people, everybody's equal before the law.

That's what it's meant to be.Phil, thank you.Steve says labelling's all as racist and far -right now for having different opinions to the Liberal left.This is the result of the rhetoric.It's come from Keir Starmer.Ashley in Beaconsfield.

I don't often agree with anything Nigel Farage says.However, he's absolutely spot on with this.The treatment of the young man and the footage may be absolutely apoplectic.It's a disgrace.My mother was a senior member of the Met.The footage makes me feel ashamed of this country.

Anyone who says two -tier policing isn't a thing, watch the footage and tell me differently.Edward is in Exeter.Your take on this, Edward.You're on the radio.Good morning.

Hello, I just wanted to basically say that we shouldn't be tying all of the police with the same brush.I've watched the video from beginning to end and the police officers that arrived after he was already in handcuffs actually started to check his vital signs, and they said that we should check to see if he actually has been stabbed.So I think the blame of this incident should lay firmly at the feet of the first officer that was on the scene.

The blame lies at the killer, the murderer, Vikram Duggvar.I mean, let's be honest about it.And the blame, members of his family who concoct a story.So let's be fair about this.

But the police officer that dragged him out and didn't listen to him, or when he said that he'd been stabbed and so on and so forth, when he clearly wasn't resisting, should be held accountable for his actions.

Can I ask you, when Mr Farage says, and I just want to get the note because I was writing it down, here we are, that we have been subjected, over the last two decades, we've been subjected to mass immigration without a vote, do you feel you've been subjected to mass immigration without a vote?

I do.I was actually voted in as a councillorfor reform in Exeter.Oh, right.

Not just now, last month, in May?

No, no, last year.I was actually expelled from reform because I held reform accountable for something completely different and they didn't like it.

Right, so where are you politically now?

I'm independent now, so I'm an independent councillor in Exeter and I would just like to say actually that I think the politicians are exactly the people that we should be blaming for what's been going on.We should be legalising pepper spray, there should be mandatory sentences for carrying a knife, and politicians have basically sat on their hands on what I believe is a national emergency.

You're not alone in thinking we should legalise pepper spray.Why would you do that?You mean, sorry, you mean citizens could carry it?Yeah, exactly.

And the reason that I'm saying that is because the most common reason for carrying a knife is people say that it's for their own self -defence.But if we give people a non -lethal alternative to carrying a knife, then nobody is going to end up dying.And anybody that is carrying a knife is clearly carrying it for much more malicious purposes.

Not if you're a Sikh.You're carrying it because it's one of your basic tenets of your belief.It should be banned.It should be banned completely.All right.Edward, thank you.

I'm only finishing to get more people involved.Thanks, Edward.Wes in Hammersmith.Wes, you're on the radio.Good morning.

Good morning again, Nick.Yeah, I just think there's too much... because I just watched a video and obviously police are responding to an incident.somebody's obviously like you said before it should be the family that should be to blame yeah well the mother is face it yep she's going to face sentencing yeah so they've came obviously all the time I'm assuming I'm not a police officer no I'm assuming that when they arrest people oh I'm not well I'm having a heart attack I feel sick so upon reflection what are the police officersto do?Because they're always being scrutinized for every little thing they do.And of course, yes, the race card is in place.

Well, they're not meant to turn a dying boy over and hang him.

A hundred and fifty percent.But at the time, they were responding to an incident where this guy has been told by all the lying public around him that he's the aggressor.

But they have to rise above that, don't they?That's the powers that they have, and hopefully the training that they receive.They're going to be given all sorts of contradictory messages throughout their police career.No one's ever going to say, I done it, Gov. Yeah, 100%.

Within the first 10 seconds they've had to make an assessment what they thought was right.

This comes in from Lee.The word racist has been weaponised.One cannot accuse anyone of any colour without being called a racist.Fear of calling out the grooming gangs is called as being of mostly Pakistani.This must stop and I don't care if I'm called a far right racist.Paul, I'm a retired officer, and I'm disgusted and ashamed of what the police have become.

As soon as someone tells you they've been stabbed, that becomes priority.Nothing else matters.The two officers and senior officers that night should also feel the full weight of the law, but unfortunately, I doubt it.Karl's in Shipley on this.Karl, you're on the radio.What do you want to say?

Good morning.

Good morning.Yeah, I think everyone can see the police have clearly made a mistake.They will no doubt hold their hands up to it, and the judiciary and the judicial process will deal with that.The problem for me is that so many people now have the opportunity that they've been looking for and are eager for to turn this into something that can even cause more racial divide in our country.And their own inherent racism, including many people in the media, individuals, not just organisations, who harbour their own racism, not just about people who've been coming over on boats in the last few years, but since a lot of people have been coming over from the end of World War II,and they have never been comfortable with it, and using words like, you know, the changes in our cultural norms and all this kind of nonsense.

And that's what the problem is.It's just an excuse.Because for every one of these cases that we're reporting on now, there'll be endless cases that have been against black people.And if you Google, you'll get, I think Wes was trying to highlight one of them, You may, for legal reasons, have stopped him faring on, but there have been many cases.

Well, of course.I mean, we only have to go back to Stephen Lawrence.I mean, there are so many examples.

Exactly, exactly.

So why do you mean that?And then there's the fire at the New Cross fire.I mean, there are so many examples.

And so many, and so many.

But do you not see there is a...Karl, I'm absolutely acknowledging the way people, non -white people were policed was appalling, but do you not see it's now in the danger of coming around the other way?

No, I don't, at all, because nowadays in our media and in our society, feelings dominate over facts.

Well, what happened that night in Southampton?Let me answer the question.Karl, please, what happened that night in Southampton?If we're not seeing a repeat of the appalling way black and non -white people were policed in the days of Stephen Lawrence and the days of the New Cross Fire, obviously we're seeing that with the way those Southampton officers acted.

Okay and I've just I've just confirmed that what you have to please Nick you know the way you present your show when you ask someone a question let them answer don't try and don't don't try and impose what you want them to say on what they say right now the fact is you ask me a question I do not believe that the police have a inherent problem in and of themselves yes individuals in the organization will make mistakes they'll hold up their hands and but there is not a direct vendetta against white people in this country.Far from it.And this narrative that people are portraying are for other motivations.And you know the problem with that is, Nick?people have blood on their hands.Because for every time we stir up trouble in this country, it increases racial attacks on the streets.

And some people, individuals, including yourself, need to ask the question, am I comfortable with what I am doing?

My first concern is, like, in this country, you're not allowed to discuss cases, are you?So the news, the media will shut down any trial, they won't report much, you know, until there's a conviction.I only heard about the details of this case once it was a conviction.I think I heard about the rest, but I didn't hear anything as the case was unfolding, you know, what had been reported in court.But what has emerged since, I find a little bit worrying in the sense that there was no witnesses to what happened.And the CPS say that Dhingwa was lying on the accusation, on his accusation, that he was attacked first and it was a racially motivated attack.

I'm thinking, first of all, if there's no witnesses and How can they say that he was lying, that he was attacked first?Fights don't just happen, do they?I'm not excusing what he's done.If he's guilty, if he's the one who started it...

No, I'm sorry, Shahid, that is why we have a legal system in this country for a judge who has all of the evidence at his disposal to make that call.Respectfully, Shahid...

They should have listened to a jury, didn't they?Where I think he's hung himself, I don't want to get too...Where I think he's hung himself is his dodgy actions afterwards, like trying to cover up his filming...Giving it to his mum as well, yeah.Yeah, but I'm suspicious.I would not be surprised years later, this comes out as an unsafe conviction.

I can't believe this.We've just heard in court today and your instant reaction is to go, oh, I wonder if he actually did do something wrong.

He's dead, Shaheed.Well, hold on, hold on.If there's no witnesses, if there's no witnesses to the actual fight...Then you rely on a judge and the legal system.The jury, you mean?Well, the jury, but also the judge to make that...

But bear in mind, Elbis haven't mentioned this.There's two cuts at the back of the legs.You don't see cuts at the back of the legs.If you're a police officer and you turn up, A, you're not psychic.Dingwalls was the one who called him.You don't see cuts at the back of the legs.

That won't be visible.One was to the jaw, apparently.What do you mean?

He's probably trying to get away.He's probably trying to get away, Shaheed.We heard that he climbed over a fence and left a trail of blood, if you must know, as we heard in court today.

I've not read that.Like I said, this is patchy information.

Whoever you go to...It's not patchy.

It's all there in black and white.Where?You tell me and I'll look it up.Well, in the court documents!And where do I get caught?You think that's transparent?

They're closed, they don't have cameras in, do they?

I'm reading this from the Guardian and the Telegraph and the Times.It's not particularly difficult to find, James.

I tend to read the Guardian quite a bit, but let me just move on to the other thing.What I think is going on in general, you remember Lucy Connolly, she openly called for hotels to be burnt down, and she didn't care if she was caught, and what people reacted to that was very defensive, very shirty, oh we don't care, just accept it as her two words, she should not be jailed.What my general concern here is, and I don't support Dingwall, if he's the aggressor, I do not support him, no way, but what's coming across to me is if somebody's racist, it's like, doesn't matter, don't complain, you've got no rights, allow that person to be racist, or now, don't believe them.That is what's coming across in this case and that Lucy Connolly, it doesn't matter if somebody's racist or not, I don't believe him.The Lucy Connolly was sentenced?Yeah, because she pled guilty.

She pled guilty.But the reaction is, it doesn't matter or now disbelieve them.That is where this thing is going.I won't support Dingwall, no way.What I'm just concerned about is there's no witnesses.How can you be so sure that he was lying?

Well, Judge William Moseley, the KC, said that Dingor murdered Novak because he believed he'd been disrespected by him, asked him if he was a bad man, probably because he'd seen the large dagger.The judge said, I'm sure Henry said nothing racist, you're the onlyperson to make that claim.Let me finish.Hold on, let me finish.I'm not justifying it.

Hold on, let me just say this last bit.And it's completely at odds with his previous character.So you can't just decide from that, well, he might have been racist.The judge has made the point that What do you mean?I'm not doubting that, Shahid.And I'm genuinely sorry to hear that, but it doesn't mean that in these instances...

What I'm imagining happened, that Dhingwa is apparently doing delivery deliveries with his brother.You'll meet a lot of people then.There's no reports about him kicking off against any of his customers.What I do imagine, what I am thinking and suspecting, is that the victim saw him, may have said something provocative, and Dhingwa kicked off.and then there was a struggle, and that's how he pulled for his blade.And on the blade, even if it was in my religion... of Islam saying, oh you must carry a knife, I would say no, it's too risky, you're going to get some hothead idiot that's going to pull it out in anger and don't... and even if it's in Pakistan or Saudi Arabia, I'd have the same view, I'm thinking no, it's too risky, like there's too many idiots out there who'll go into a pious way as an excuse to use it and they'll use it in anger and don't risk it, you know, I'm sorry to those that want to generally hold a blade out of their genuine belief but I think it's too risky in these kind of situations.

I'm a Sikh, a Qurban wearing Sikh, have done so for the last 20 -25 years, and one of the reasons that there's been such a prominent kind of uproar by the Sikhs about making statements and giving our condolences to Henry is because the notion of using our Qurban to this effect is unfathomable, right?It's something that is just not considered.

He didn't use the Kirpan just to be clear in this case.

100 % yes.He didn't use a Kirpan.What he did was he obviously had another larger blade and he used that instead.so it is important to distinguish that but first and foremost the knife crime itself is abhorrent.issue that it's not acceptable.

Just to clarify on that, I mean you said in court you're a member of an order of Sikhs called the, an apology, is it the Nihang, the Nahang, who have a tradition of carrying a second knife that is often fully visible, is what was heard in court today.

Yeah, quite often they can do, right, but it's not typical, it's not the order of the Sikhs to wear the big big karpana on them or other types of weapons on them when they're out and about right you will always carry a karpana the shorter one which is kind of defined by law yeah and that's what you adhere to right he obviously had another one with him he's used that and that's not a karpana that's that that would be something totally separate, and he's used that, and the full force of the law, I'm glad, has taken place.I'm very, very kind of upset about the situation and what's happened.I can imagine.I'm equally, because look, I've been carrying this, and I've How many other Sikhs that are baptised carry this in the UK?You know, it must be in the tens of thousands.How many cases do we hear of...

Well, can I tell you, since the exemption for carrying this was introduced in the Criminal Justice Act of 1988, giving people the right to have a kirpan, there has not been a single example of it being used in any attack or any killing.So I am absolutely happy to make that point.

Absolutely.And the reason for that is because what I said at the start is unfathomable.We are taught that we risk this coupon isours, it's a gift from our gurus, we don't abuse it.Our gurus, what they've done in their lifetimes for religion, for other religions, before they've even considered picking any weapons, right, but what they have done is they've adorned them to us, but with such restraint that is very rarely used.There is more chance of somebody being struck by lightning right, every year in the UK, then every seat coming in and stabbing them with a carpan.

And that's why when it's happened, even it's unfathomable for us.And, you know, but the other side of my concern is that, you know, the way the situation is in the country, we all know what's going on and how kind of like the mood can change and shift in a country.And we seem to be getting a shift.So you know, what I find equally disgusting is how right -wing or right -leaning, whether it be media, correspondents and the like, will use this one incident even though it's probably rarer than, you know, winning the lottery.

But I think that's so important why we talk about it because the problem is if you just leave it to the likes of Elon Musk and some other, you know, people to be the only ones talking about it, A, it looks like, you know, you're in some way covering it up and also I mean anyone can agree whatever your politics this is and you know you were saying that it's just the most horrific incident that's happened to Henry Novak and of course the repercussions for his for his family and the issue is if you ignore it and you don't talk about it then the only people talking about it are as you say people who are often on the far right or the hard right.

But all I'm saying is there needs to be equal measure in that discussion and equal representation so we're talking about Henry Novak but there's a hundredor so murders with stabbings that have happened how many names can we how many names do we know of those poor victims and those circumstances and the situations that arose around that can we know what a few probably but but compared to how many incidents happen we don't know those we don't know those details they don't even make the news anymore and and and This is what I'm trying to say.It's got to be kind of an equal representation in terms of the situation and the rarity of it.And yeah, it's good to talk about these issues, but there needs to be kind of a fair representation of the whole story, not just focus on one thing, just to provide a narrative, whether it's right -leaning.I've been reading stuff from correspondents saying, oh, the Sika plan is not compatible with British society.it's never been compatible with British society.

And as I pointed out there hasn't been a single case of it being used.

There hasn't been a single case.And the large amount of Brits might not know that Sikhs, baptised Sikhs, not all Sikhs, baptised Sikhs, The British and the Sikh history goes back hundreds of years.It was compatible when the British were in India during the British Raj.It was compatible when the Sikhs were in World War I, World War II.It was compatible when the Sikhs came over all those years.In fact, it's so compatible with British culture, it's enshrined in law.

I mean, what more?Like, you know, we in Britain, our pride is that we're law -abiding.uh we have legal system and we're law -abiding citizens that's one of the great things about britain when we talk about you know what are the good things about britain you know what's the culture of britain one of it is it's got really strong laws when he said i've been stabbed i mean a rational response then would have been to try and ascertain if that was true and then to get medical attention but they just

because they assumed that he must be racist because that was what they've been told, they proceeded to handcuff him.So I think when the R word gets used like that, rationality seems to just go out of the window, and that's unfortunately something that's widespread in our society now.

What do you make of the conversation we're having about this because I mean clearly it's a highly emotive one and the main thing I was trying to decipher and you may have heard some of that harrowing body cam footage that we played but it's really what the police can learn from this and I've got no doubt being a police officer is a difficult job by the way.I'm not for one moment pointing the finger and being clever after the event but ultimately I mean he quite clearly is saying that I can't breathe Henry Novak.

Yeah I mean I Obviously it is a difficult job, and I think we often haven't made it easier for them with the kind of excessive political correctness that we've got in this country at the moment around things like race.As we know, obviously that was one of the reasons why the grooming scandal wasn't investigated for so long, because everyone is just so nervous around this issue.Even though Sikhism isn't a race, as has been erroneously suggested by some of your earlier callers, but whenever a religion is involved, especially one that seems to be most practiced by non -white people, everyone just gets very, very, very jumpy about it.And I think that's a huge problem, especially when it comes to kind of effective policing.

OK, thank you, Aniket.I appreciate you calling in.Kieran's in Bracknell.Hi, Kieran.Henry, hi.How are you?

Are you OK?I'm all right, yeah.What did you...How about you?

Yeah, I'm fine.I'm calling because I've been listening to you for a very long time, OK?I don't think you're racist at all.The first call went out of control, but there is an element of what he was trying to say.He got really jumpy on the way to what the DS was talking about, and you never said anything wrong at all, I can tell you that much.But what is the problem we have in this country?

It's about the race.I don't understand when we're talking about a knife crime, where is this sickism came into it?I do not know.Did I hear you mention since 1988, not a single crime on this ever reported for 38 years?Yes.Can I make a request, please?

I think this is where we are in the dangerous times in this country at this moment.I think every single LBC presenter should start with that, because that is the only way to educate the morons.I'm sorry, because as you said, misinformation, it spreads like wildfire.I think that is what everyone should start about and not the religion, and bring it to educate everybody.Because to the gullible, this information can be easily twisted.And you know what?

The crimes could be against the Sikh people, Sikhs in this country, because it could be racially aggravated assaults coming through, which I hope it is not.Kiran, are you a Sikh?

Do you mind me asking?I don't know what your religion is.

No, look, I'm a human.I'm born Hindu.I'm born Hindu.I'm a British Hindu.I think the religion is, the whole thing about religion makes me Sikh, to be honest.

OK, well the reason I raise it is that, I mean, my feed of messages coming in is there are a lot of people saying that regardless of the vast, vast, vast, I mean, you know, this is one individual out of all of the British Sikhs who's clearly a complete idiot, but the idea that you still are able to carry a ceremonial blade is something that they don't quite understand and they're saying it you know if it does get in the hands of someone who is clearly evil or unhinged or insert your own word here then then clearly there's a level of risk or danger sure maybe this is maybe

of the level of knife crime across the country, right?And maybe it is time to re -look at the legislation of 1988, why it was accepted.Maybe that is something that the discussion should happen openly.But the most important thing is, what I cannot understand is, as a police officer we understand, what the harrowing footage, what you just said, make me pick up the phone.He's telling, he's struggling to breathe.The first port of call should be ambulance.

Ambulance should be there.Whether that person has done, and how can you read somebody's rights when you can't hear him breathe?

Thank you, Kieran.Good call, and it's interesting to hear your perspective, so thank you for calling in and putting it bluntly in a nicer way than just shouting at me and calling me a racist.Michael's in Sunderland.Hello, Michael.

The sound was amazing.I've actually seen the video.It is horrendous.Plus also, the pay -as -you -visit card, because that's what it says on the 4999.And also, the murderer turned around and said, he hasn't been stabbed.

Yeah yeah that's a very good point actually and I forgot to mention that because he does clearly say he has not been stabbed.

Yeah and then because on the video you can see him he's trying to get the police attention it's just like oh I'm I'm the one who I'm the victim is yeah forget about him but what I'm trying this this case is totally and also mind you the police I think this comes criminal charges here because Well at one point, I don't know if you could hear Michael, and I'll have to get someone to listen back to it, but at one point, it sounds like a police officer says to him, he says, I've been stabbed, and I think the police officer says, I don't think you have mate, is the exact words.

And then another one says, when he says, he hasn't been stabbed, one of the individuals, we're not sure if it is Vikram or if it's his brother, but he goes, as you say, he goes, well he hasn't been stabbed, and thenfemale police officer says, well, we have to check.You'll understand we have to check.It was very dismissive.

Yeah, because I've also put the subtitles on so you can leave it all as well.So you don't, because you know, you said certain words you kind of pick up.But Look, all of it.I think the bullet should be done as well because not once did they say he's being stabbed, he climbed over a fence, his shoes here, his shoes over there, and they're trying to distract from it.But as a policeman, surely you don't go in and you just believe the first thing you're told.

Well, he clearly wasn't in a fit state to call 999 himself, was he?Because he'd been stabbed.Yeah, but it's not as if he was drunk.

And so what I'm saying is, I can't understand.And even more other than that, is when they come and arrested the perpetrator, right, they didn't even put handcuffs on him.And he's somebody dying.Plus, also, another thing I'm annoyed about, Keir Starmer took a 7 o 'clock today to make any sort of comment, where within a week or two, they were on their knees, about that George Floyd.

All I would say, Michael, is that this is UK proceedings.He is ultimately a barrister.And he and I don't know what goes through his mind.But all I would say as a counter is he's probably thinking as someone who was the most senior prosecutor in the land when he's head of the Crown Prosecution Service, he wants to wait until sentencing is done, as has been done today before he passes judgment.